Interview with Dave Harvey, Author of When Sinners Say “I Do”
Author: Dave Harvey
Publisher: Shepherd Press
ISBN: 9780976758266
WTS: There is no lack of books, Christian and secular, on marriage. Why another one? What did you feel had not been said?
Dave Harvey: Though I’m grateful for some of these books, it’s common for marriage books to address the symptoms of marital challenges while neglecting the real problem. In this book, I say, “The cause of our marriage battles is neither our marriage nor our spouse. It’s the sin in our hearts—entirely, totally, exclusively, without exception. This is taught clearly and consistently in Scripture, from the first sin to the final judgment.” But don’t get me wrong—this book doesn’t merely bemoan the problem but exalts in the solution—the gospel! When Sinners Say “I Do”: Discovering the Power of the Gospel for Marriage avoids the psychological discussions that fill the pages of many popular needs-based resources. Instead, it encourages readers to develop the tools to diagnose their hearts and then flee to the gospel for help. The most helpful summary I think I can offer is taken right from the book: “God wants Christians to delight in marriage. And He has made provision in the gospel to do so. But we can’t truly understand the gospel, or even the basic problems of every marriage, until we come to terms with the undeniable reality of sin. Men and women (and me!) find real hope and help when we realize that God uses marriage to reveal the heart and change the soul.”
WTS: Identifying the members of a marriage as “sinners” might seem a very negative portrayal. Why this emphasis in the title?
DH: There is a simple biblical truth that has helped me that may also help you in understanding the title. To say “I am a sinner” is to stare boldly at a fundamental reality that many people don’t even want to glance at. But when we acknowledge the fact that sin holds considerable sway in our lives, several great things become clear. First, we find ourselves in some pretty good company—the heroes of our faith from Old Testament times to present—who experienced the battle with sin on the front lines. Second, we also acknowledge what everybody around us already knows—particularly our spouse. But, by far the greatest benefit of acknowledging our sinfulness, is that it makes Christ and his work for us precious to us. Like Jesus said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance” (Luke 5: 31-32). Only sinners need a Savior. So I guess the bad news is that we’re sinners, but the good news is that the power of the gospel gives us hope for a happy, fruitful marriage.
WTS: What do you mean when you say that marriage is first and foremost a theological matter?
DH: Whether or not we realize it, our ideas about life, needs, marriage, romance, conflict, and everything else reveal themselves all the time in our words and deeds, inevitably reflecting our view of God. And when we talk about theology, all we are talking about is what we think about God. If you listen closely, then, theology spills from our lips every day.
A good everyday spouse-theologian can discern that beliefs about God and self, about problems and relationships, and about right and wrong are hotly defended and argued all the time. It’s there in our vocabulary, it’s revealed in how we perceive and discuss our needs and it’s displayed through the underlying assumptions about why we do what we do.
Make no mistake—how a husband and wife build their marriage day-by-day and year-by-year is fundamentally shaped by their theology. It governs how we think, what we say, and how we act. Our theology governs our entire life. And our theology ultimately determines the outcome of our marriage.
WTS: Why is sin the greatest enemy to our marriages? Isn’t the problem just bad communication?
DH: Sin isn’t just the greatest enemy in our marriage. Sin is the greatest enemy in every area of our lives. Galatians 5:17 makes this clear for us when it states, “For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.” Realizing that we’re always in a battle against our greatest enemy—sin—will help the gospel to shine brighter, both in our hearts and our marriage. Bad communication can be a big problem in many marriages, but it’s not fundamental. Bad communication is the result of ignoring sin that desperately needs the grace of God and hope of the gospel to speak life.
WTS: Why is marriage a particularly excellent battlefield for our fight against sin?
DH: Because marriage is so effective at revealing sin! One of my Westminster professors once said, “Your spouse always hooks your idol.” That means our spouse becomes an effective tool in God’s hand to expose what or who we really worship. In chapter seven, the story of David and Nathan is recounted. If you recall, David was king of Israel—at the top of his game so to speak. And yet, his desires led him to covet another man’s wife, Bathsheba. After committing adultery, David plotted to have Bathsheba’s husband killed. Enter Nathan who helped David to see his sin against God and the grievous nature of his heart. Like Nathan, our spouse is alongside us in the battle to help us see where we’ve fallen and, as importantly, helps us to see the grace of God to fight our sin.
WTS: If you had to put into one line the “take away” you hope a couple would get from your book, what would it be?
DH: That the gospel—God’s love story written to each one who will believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins—provides hope for any marriage. There is no problem beyond the hopeful reach of the gospel. As the book walks through different stories, you find one thing in common: no matter what sin, what problems, what difficulties occur, there is always greater news and hope for change found in the power of the gospel.
WTS: Did your Westminster Theological Seminary education help you in any particular way in preparation for this book?
DH: No, not at all. Actually, that was a joke. Westminster, particularly through the faculty and their experience, was vital in adding depth and breadth to certain biblical foundations that were laid in my local church. Of particular relevance for this book was my exposure to the dedicated men and women at CCEF, many of whom serve on the WTS faculty. I believe the pastoral team and the people of Covenant Fellowship Church—where I have served in ministry over the past 21 years—would say my time at Westminster has born fruit in my life, as well as theirs.
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But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Galatians 5:16-18
Just thought it would good for the context of the verse quoted by Dave to be shown. May the Holy Spirit bring revelation through his words.
This book is dead on, I encourage couples and even singles to get this book and devour it!! My wife and I are reading it together and it is fabulous, it has truly helped me see the law of sin and it’s affect.
My husband and I have been married for 52 years (by God’s grace totally!) and we both say “Amen” to this book! Inidividually following Jesus and walking the way of the cross, dying to ourselves, keeping cleansed daily in the fountain provided for us (the blood of Christ), and walking together in the light of God as He reveals our sin is the key. We have read many books on marriage and although there were helpful suggestions, this book points to the Solution - Jesus Himself - and to our need to call sin “sin” so we can be set free. We are passing this book out to others - it is a very refreshing helpful book. Dave Harvey is a gifted writer and very funny too!
I came across this book about 6 months ago and have since incorporated it into all my premarital sessions. I’ve also been able to give it to couples who are helping to disciple other couples through hard times…their reply is that this book is changing them and their thinking about marriage as much as it’s helping the couple they’re discipling. I am so thankful for the new workbook…what a great tool to help in an area of tremendous need. Thank you Dave